David Totah in DISCUSSION with Andrea Marescalchi & Randi Malkin Steinberger
Below is the transcript of a conversation with Andrea Marescalchi and Randi Malkin Steinberger that took place on November 27th 2015. The two were very closely involved with the process of making the arazzi. Randi Malkin Steinberger is a Los Angeles-based American photographer and filmmaker; in the 1980s she was granted the unique opportunity to visit the Afghan refugee camps where Boetti’s works were embroidered, and document their production.
Andrea Marescalchi, known fondly as “Bobo”, was Alighiero Boetti’s main draughtsman and led the production of the works created from the 1980s until Boetti’s death in 1994. Bobo sadly left this world on December 4th 2015. I am immensely grateful to Bobo, without him this project would have remained incomplete. His sincere kindness, and his pure soul made it impossible for the lucky ones who met him not to welcome him right away into their hearts. He will be missed dearly by all of us who have been touched by his light.
David Totah [DT]
Do you believe that Boetti considered the arazzi to be his most important body of work, in light of the embroidery business his mother conducted from home in his youth?
Andrea Marescalchi [AM]
No I don’t believe that this was his reasoning. However, very often, when Alighiero talked about the quality of the work, I could sense his sharp eye had been exposed at an early age to that body of work. He was captivated by the vibrancy of the colors and richness of the embroidery and he considered Afghan women as way more talented than westerners in their way of using color contrasts. If he had gone to another region such as Central America, the palette and contrast of colors would be very different.
DT
Did he have a higher level of satisfaction from one body of work vs another? Did he have a special relationship with the arazzi?
AM
He had a collection of tapestries and local embroideries that he began accumulating since his first trip to Afghanistan. He was always on a quest to find beautiful and rare objects. Like his collection of Sassanid seals which he sold to a collector in Turin one day. His eye was ready to find and identify that kind of beauty.
DT
Being one of the first European conceptual artists crossing the line towards serial production, what was the perception at the time regarding the disconnect between actual production and the initial concept? Was that perception ever a source of doubt for Boetti to continue on this path?
AM
Conceptual art - no matter what - implies delegating the realization of the work. On the other hand, Alighiero’s rigorous Torinese culture was reflected in his very scrupulous choice of material. This changed when he moved to Rome, and as he said, he liberated himself from this black and white rigidity, bringing to the world things that already exist and delegating the implementation of his ideas to others. What was extraordinary in that historical moment was to choose a daring path of crossing the lines between conceptual art and local artisan’s workmanship, which back then shocked some, maybe even himself, I don’t know. Certainly not Gian Enzo Sperone.
DT
Legend says the idea of making the arazzi in a series came from Gian Enzo, when he said that the mappa was beautiful and many of them should be made. That was an innovative stance at that point, which probably triggered criticism at the time, was Boetti sensitive to that?
AM
The only thing I can say in that respect is that similar to his experience introducing the “chance” aspect in the postal works, he saw that the mappas all came out different; it’s a little bit like his invention of multiples that differ from one another. They are sometimes qualified as a series, but in fact, they are all unique works.
DT
My question was also driven by my underlying interest in drawing an analogy between Boetti and Bochner. Bochner’s works in series all differ as well. The distribution of the paint affects the final result. Even if the words are the same, the color combination will always be different.
DT
Randi, it looks like the Afghans seemed proud to be part of this community, unified by Boetti’s projects. How much did they know about the messages behind the words? Was there any curiosity on their end to understand the meaning of it all?
Randi Malkin Steinberger [RMS]
I don’t know because the communication between us was very minimal. My focus was to report back to Rome with my photos on the status of the work in progress. What do you think Bobo?
AM
There was some kind of interaction between the maker and the meanings especially as there was some sort of freedom given to them, hence the frequent inclusion of words in Arabic calligraphy, where they were allowed to write what they liked, at times.
RMS
Sorry for interrupting you Bobo, I wanted to say that it wasn’t the women, but men, who decided to write. I don’t believe that freedom was given to women.
AM
Yes, you are absolutely right, this freedom was not granted to women. Women had a limited role in the understanding of the meanings of these tapestries. Their most important concern was supporting their families and Alighiero was very proud to help by giving them work allowing them to survive, despite the very difficult conditions as refugees in Peshawar.
DT
Were you able to observe some habits that took place, a rhythm in the work that was peculiar? It seemed that there was a collegial atmosphere. Were there certain habits that you could observe, that emanated from that ambiance?
RMS
Their homes were very small, one or two rooms maximum. Weaving was part of every day’s life, between meals and their tasks at home.
AM
Yes, the embroideries were made in their homes and therefore the collegial aspect only came from the fact that they were family members working together under the same roof. It wasn’t an assembly line production system. The men in charge would distribute the drawings to be made, which were sent from Rome, and each family was given a certain quantity of threads to work with.
DT
Did you notice over time a certain freedom on their end that went beyond the choice of color? Did they sometimes see themselves as artists who could add their personal touch?
AM
No. The main concern was to accomplish the task, and do what was requested to make the money they needed. They didn’t really interpret the letters and that was beyond their comprehension. Sometimes mistakes in the shapes of the letters appeared, which they sometimes corrected by alternating the colors. These situations fell under the “happy coincidences” that Alighiero liked to be surprised with.
RMS
As time went by there has been a tendency to over-romanticize this aspect of the work. A lot of ideas came organically and often circumstances created the situation.
DT
It is obvious that with Alighiero no longer alive, the stories surrounding his work have evolved into sorts of myths or legends. But it’s nice that things have taken that tone. It allows us to dream more, despite the fact that we are not distancing ourselves much from what appears to have been the reality then. The way we interpret the work doesn’t distort the original magic of the creative process, because those interpretations are what emanates from those words and colors.
DT
Was Afghanistan chosen for its expertise in tapestries in the region?
AM
Legend says that Boetti was in South America, and after having earned some money, the travel agency suggested Afghanistan as the next best destination, especially considering that it was the most affordable option. But then Boetti became enamored with the country, and decided to open the One Hotel. Resonating the myth of Rimbaud.
DT
From a more technical standpoint, how long did it take to make a large tapestry?
AM
I am not sure. There was always a question mark if the works would make their way to Rome, which amused Alighiero. But even after the Soviet invasion, for a while the Afghans tried their best to maintain their commitment to work for him.
DT
Did all the quotes used in the works originate from him or were some of them suggested by you (Bobo) and Luca (Pancrazzi), for example?
AM
At times, if he liked our suggestions, he would go along with them, but the majority of the quotes came from his readings and from his interests. Some of them came from books he read and others were written by him, based on situations that came up unexpectedly. “Per filo e per segno” is an Italian expression, which appears to be tailor-made for the embroideries.
DT
Along with the exploration of duality that dominated his life, was there a parallel quest to find his twin soul? Maybe inspired by Rumi, did he have a longing for that?
AM
I am not sure about the origin of the split between his two characters (Alighiero e Boetti) and I’m not certain he was on this search for the other outside himself. However he was often haunted and played around with 101, 11, 111.
DT
I realized after I decided to do this show that I shared with him the constant appearance of 11 or 111, a symbol in numerology that can suggest an angelic message, a sign of synchronicity, and the idea that 1 and 1 is 2, hence union and duality. This past November, while I was driving on the 101 in Los Angeles, it suddenly occurred to me that there was a potential additional link between Boetti, Bochner and I. I had the intuition which quickly was confirmed (googling it while at the wheel) that 1940, the year of both of their births, may have been the year of the dragon in Chinese astrology, as is mine (1976). Many synchronicities related to this show have demonstrated that mystery is a key ingredient in the choosing of these two artists for the first show in the gallery.
AM
There is a series of early works by Alighiero related to that. In the 1960s, artists associated with the study of language and for them, already then, also numbers were a very important component: trying to find combinations and unveiling some of the mystery associated with number sequences.
DT
Yes, another common point between Alighiero and Mel.
DT
He called “felici coincidenze” (happy coincidences) what I call synchronicities. Those occurrences that some of us recognize as signs taking us along our respective paths.
AM
Yes he was very interested in these phenomena and there was also a book made for his show at the Bonn, Munster and Luzern Museums in 1992-1993 called ‘Synchronizität als ein Prinzip akausaler Zusammenhänge’* (Synchronicity: An Acausal Connecting Principle). He would apply this principle in his daily personal experience but wasn’t trying to make a rule out of it. He just knew that the world worked like that, even if most of us don’t have conscious knowledge of it.
*The title of the exhibition and catalogue is taken from a book written by Carl Gustav Jung in 1952. It was chosen both for its content in relation to the favourite topic of “happy coincidences” and also due to the fact that it may be inscribed in a magic square of 49 letters (7 times 7).
